Does Todd Bentley Have Anything To Do With Jesus?
The question is not mine but Michael Spencer’s aka iMonk. He asks the question on his new site Jesus Shaped Spirituality
Michael makes an excellent point when he writes:
I can evaluate Bentley, but I can’t judge him. God will judge him and God will judge me.
It sometimes seems to me that people on both sides of the issue lose sight of that distinction. There is a qualitative difference between the two. It is OK as a Christian to “test the spirits” and evaluate situations and teachings. To put any evaluation into some sort of negative category of “judging” is to ask for unthinking, uncritical, automaton followers.
Of course, iMonk does go on to evaluate Bentley:
How can we describe Bentley’s revival? Take the KC Prophets, add a downgraded version of Benny Hinn, season it with Rodney Howard-Browne’s Laughing “revival” and top it all off with the Biker-Church-Store-Front-Christianity that has gained ground in this era of purpose-driven, subculture dominated evangelicalism.
Bentley is crude. Raw. Violent. He’s phenomenonally ignorant. He’s an obvious liar who is claiming resurrections into double figures. His raw ambition for major media coverage isn’t even subtle. He’s self centered and hearing voices telling him to do terrible, violent things.
Cricket. Cricket. Awkward… so Michael heading to Lakeland any time soon?
Indeed there is a distinction between “evaluate” and “judge”. But I think Michael has crossed that line when he uses descriptions like “phenomenonally [sic] ignorant”, “an obvious liar” and “self centered”, which touch on his character rather than on his ministry.
Are we not to judge those inside the church? At least, that’s what my friend Paul said, though he also tells people to cut off their balls, so maybe he’s not the best source.
Interesting article, some good points but I do disagree with his tenth point “Jesus didn’t do bizarre, insane things in the process of healing or exorcisms.”. I noticed some commenters take issue as well. Jesus did do some bizarre things like muddy saliva in the eye. The entire book of John shows the grizzly side of Jesus that I love.
The difficult point of balance here is that the miraculous is abnormal to a fallen humanity. So the tendency is that our delivery or communication of the miraculous becomes abnormal and weird as well. Is it possible for us to let God do the miraculous, the incomprehensible, the amazing, and us just be in awe, without wearing white suits, blowing in people’s faces, roaring like a lion, kneeing someone in the stomach? I hope so.
Glory to God that in our church we are seeing many miracles happen recently , a child healed of chronic seizures, cysts healed, just amazing stuff. Not surprisingly God has done this all on his own without any signature prayer style, or impartation from anyone besides Jesus. Comments exceeding intended length…thanks for the post Scott.
Kevin, I think Paul (if you mean the apostle and are thinking of 1 Corinthians 5-6) means that church leaders and assembled congregations should judge those within their own congregations, not that ordinary Christians should judge other ordinary Christians over whom they have no authority.
There is no hierarchy in Christianity.
It’s ALL Jesus.
Matt 20:
25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall NOT BE SO among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant.
Galatians 1:
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
2 Cor. 1:
24 Not that we have dominion over your faith, but are FELLOW WORKERS for your joy; for by faith you stand.
Titus 1:
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers…..11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain…..13Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
The bottom line on judgement is this. Christians can judge actions. If we see someone who is sinning we can call that person out on there sin. This is the point we miss to many times as chistians. We can not judge someones heart or motivation for their actions.
Check this. It is not for us to say that man is terrible and, he must not be a christian. We don’t know what man has decided in his own heart. That is what we are not to judge. Actions are open to judgement or, we would not be allowed to be jurors.
Gnats and camels.
We judge too often the stupid things that matter little–like how many televisions or strong language–and don’t judge the truly destructive forces like greed or even conformity.
I noticed Peter there was no scripture in your reply teaching we are not to judge those who “claim to be a brother” unless that person is somehow “beneath” us in the hierarchy. (Thanks J). I am not aware of a scripture teaching this, please enlighten me if there is one.
There is a foolishness taught in Christianity about judgment: That somehow what someone SAYS they are supersedes their obvious actions so it is “judging” them (oh no) if we point out their stupidity.
It’s pretty obvious over time if someone is a Christian or not. Just ask his family. Just ask his workmates. Just ask his neighbors. If he was an asshole before he got “saved” and is still one 2 years later, then he’s not a Christian, he’s just an ass.
Kevin, I did not use the word “hierarchy”. But I cannot agree with J and you that there is absolutely no concept of hierarchy in the church. To look just on the page of my Bible which happens to be open, see 1 Peter 5:2-3, where elders are told “be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them … not lording it over those entrusted to you”. So there are pastors who have been entrusted with the responsibility to watch over ordinary Christians. Of course they should do it in the proper Christian way, “not lording it”.
Also, I did refer to a passage of Scripture, 1 Corinthians 5-6 (I didn’t quote it because I don’t want to fill up the comment space with material which you can look up). To be more specific, see 5:4-5 for the teaching that a person should be disciplined by the assembled church. See also Matthew 18:17 in context.
I concur with Mike that we can judge someone’s actions, and so say “this statement is an obvious lie”, but not their characters, “this person is an obvious liar”.
Peter I never said there is no concept of hierarchy in the church, I asserted there is no restriction on judging the character of others by Christians in general, not simply those in authority.
And by definition a liar is one who lies. Hope that gets some sense through the mind programming you’ve obviously received. Ask a 5 year old: “What do you call a person who lies?” They already know the answer you seem to feel compelled to avoid.
I am familiar with both the passages you mention re: Those in sin. Not seeing how that helps your point. In Matt 18 an INDIVIDUAL is told to take his concern to the person, then take WITNESSES and THEN go to the church.
So, Peter, answer this…is it OK for a Christian to say a person who lies is a liar or not?
Kevin, I’m sorry if I misunderstood you as agreeing with J that “There is no hierarchy in Christianity”.
A liar is someone who habitually lies, not someone who tells one lie. If someone has evidence that a certain person has told a lie or even several lies, it is right to say that, to the individual and to those with pastoral responsibility for them. But it is not right to call them a liar as that implies something about their general character.
Anyway, the only evidence for Todd Bentley being a liar is based on the presupposition that accounts of people being raised from the dead cannot be true. On that basis would you accuse Jesus and the apostles of being liars?
Peter,
Is a murderer someone who habitually murders or a rapist someone who habitually rapes?
I think you are trying to find justification for an unjustified position.
“cannot” and “are not” are two separate ideas. While I believe they could be true, they are not true. You know yourself why many would accept the Biblical accounts while dismissing Bentley.
Though I will say I have many friends who would certainly agree the apostles (mainly Paul) lied about raising people from the dead.
Occam’s Razor cuts both ways.
The American Heritage dictionary definition of liar.
Note the plural. Compare the definition of murderer:
Note the singular. Similarly for rapist:
Why do you say “they are not true”? Do you have any evidence to back up this claim, an accusation of lying against an elder (well, maybe) which should not be entertained without witnesses (1 Timothy 5:19)?
Peter,
Oh man, what an idiot you are…
(I’ll use the American Heritage definition of someone who is foolish…)
Do you realize your type of argument is why non-Christians scoff at Christ?
If someone wishes to assert resurrection then overwhelming evidence of that event is incumbent upon them–even more so if they claim to do so under the power of Christ.
Idiot.
Sorry, I didn’t mean that. Wait, yes I did.
[Sorry Scott to do this on your blog. This type of stupidity is just impossible to overlook.]
Kevin, if overwhelming evidence were produced that someone had been raised from the dead through Todd Bentley’s ministry, would you believe it? What about if it were through Jesus’ ministry? Or Elisha’s? Luke 16:31.
Peter,
Yes, I would.
But here’s the thing…he’s claiming multiple resurrections without the overwhelming evidence.
For you to miss this point is, well, amazingly naive.
I have met many Christians in my life. Some of them have let me down, and a lot of them have hurt me. They have grown to become pastors, and some have self-destructed. I still don’t stop praying blessings for an instant over each and every one of them no matter what they did to me. Jesus was a man of unconditional love. Our perspective of Christ, and what God is and what He can do, has to be open. In Mark 6, it specifically writes that Jesus “intended to pass them by”–meaning the disciples on the boat. Their perspective of how Christ should save them, made them think Christ was a ghost. They didn’t recognize Him, they became terrified.
Let God out of the box that we have created for Him. He wants to wonders, and tells us to do what Christ did.
If one person came to know Christ as their savior during this “revival”, then in my book, it was worth it. Jesus didn’t condemn his disciples when they messed up and He didn’t concern himself with personal matters. He discipled them and sent them out and they probably screwed up so many times.
Todd Bentley is mere human, trying his best to do God’s will, and he has probably made many mistakes. What he is doing is real.
Jordan –
Asking a person to acknowledge the new testament, and follow it’s teachings is not quite the same as putting “God in a box”. Saying that God is everywhere, and that we are all partakers in Jesus anointing is not putting “God in a box”.
Saying that God is in Lakeland, and you need to come and partake of Todd’s anointing IS putting God in a box.
I cannot say that Todd is trying his best to do God’s will. I do not know his motives – and neither do you. I do know, that what I see there, and how others are reacting to it is not good.
Jesus condemned many of the self serving religious people of his day. It’s irresponsible to say “Jesus was love” – so we must accept anything with a Christian label attached to it.
God CAN work through anything – but that does not mean that anything we do is okay, just because one good thing MAY happen.
You should take a read through all the Bentley posts on here.
Either the move is or isn’t of God. Too many have their eyes on Bentley and cannot see Jesus’ compassion of hurting humanity. Todd may be a bit crude, rough around the edges and lacking in Biblical acumen, but none of that would make him false. That connotation is tossed around too freely and frequently. For a great read check out “A Step Into Deliverance” by T. Pugh. It’s a riveting autobiography about one pastor’s journey into the deliverance ministry.
Todd does lack “Biblical Acumen” and is therefore false in many areas.
Jesus’ compassion has not one thing to do with Todd’s actions, or Lakeland.
Sure, God has worked many times in spite of what we do, or how wrong we are – but I’m not sure that that makes it okay to be wrong.