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Some Thoughts On Gay Marriage

June 12, 2008

OK. Here’s what we don’t need on this one: anything decrying homosexuality. This post is not about whether that is a valid lifestyle choice or not. This post is about the church. The thoughts I give are the start of a conversation I hope to have with those that come here. This is a little longer than most posts but for those that work through it I am genuinely interested in some feedback. You”ll hear some things you’ve heard before but hopefully I bring it together in a beneficial way.

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The cat’s out of the bag, and my guess is that more cats will come out of more bags. Countries around the world have legalized gay marriage and now states are moving that way in the US. At this point in the conversation the question is not whether this is “right” or “wrong” it’s just the situation we presently find ourselves in this world. So what should the church do? How should we respond? In a revelation that is surprising to nobody I have a few ideas. But first some observations.

First, It seems to me that the word “marriage” has become, ironically, a hindrance in a conversation about marriage. What the church ideally proposes and what the government wants to do are different things. Unfortunately, Christians are as confused about this as many secular people.

A story: A couple in my church had started to date. Movies, dinner, platonic stuff. Here’s the problem: he was married. He had been separated from his wife for three years; his ex-wife, who had started the divorce proceedings, was living with another man; and the divorce was pretty much finalized they were just waiting for a couple of clarifications from child services, in fact, they were several months past a court date when they were first told by the court they were divorced. A couple of board members were scandalized. How could he date someone when he was still married. In discussing this a board member made the statement, “The divorce is not final until the government says its final.”

So I asked a question, “Lets say a couple comes to our church and they have lived together for a couple of years are we going to recognize them as married?” The man answered me, “No, they are living in sin.” I said, “Well the government says they’re married. When a couple live together for a period of one year they are considered common-law married by the government. Their assets would be separated equally as if they had been “married.” So answer me if a divorce can only be ended by the government don’t we then have to recognize a marriage started by the government?” The man had no answer because he didn’t see the hole in his argument. He viewed marriage as a legal contract with the authority of the government making it important. Even sadder, as leader in the church, he had no concern for their dating procedure, or even any thoughts on what proper Christian dating looked like. I think that we should have higher view of marriage than this in the church.

Primarily what the government is proposing with gay “marriage” is a legal contract. A way to protect the assets of both persons entering the contract. Something that should not concern or worry the church. It also allows some partners to receive medical benefits. Again something that should not concern the church. But here’s the problem this is also how Christians and the church are treating “marriage.” Just a contract that is increasingly being enacted for its out clause. As an example of our “high standard” of marriage and our views on the “sanctity” of marriage many studies suggest that Christian divorce rates are currently the same as non-Christians.

Born Again Christians Just As Likely to Divorce As Are Non-Christians September 8 2004

Secondly, as opposed to some I believe that we can and do legalize morality. For example, not murdering someone is a moral that has become legalized. Same with rape, thieving, and pedophilia. So the question is not one of legalizing morality, but often of whose morality. Even once that distinction is recognized another tangible problem is what aspects of our morality do we legalize and then further how do we police them?

For example, we may recognize that premarital sex is a problem in America leading to the spread of STDs, and a high rate of teen pregnancies and unwed mothers which are putting a stress on health care (this is a an issue for non-Christians too thats why they are giving out so many condoms). That’s a secular perspective, but as Christian ethicists we would also aver that premarital sex, especially with multiple partners, is not how we should behave as Christians. But can we legalize that? We recognize the stress on the health care system as civilians, we recognize the issue as Christians but do we try to make it illegal to have premarital sex? And if we do how do we police that? What is the penalty? It’s a complicated issue.

Thirdly, we believe in the separation of church and state. In a statement issued a day after the ruling, Americans United (AU), an organization that lobbies for the separation of church and state, praised the high court’s decision, while also making clear that churches would not be required, in the words of the court, to “change [their] religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples” [HERE]. No one is telling the church that they have to perform gay marriages in their buildings or amend their statements of faith under threat of state penalty.

Three problems before we can even discuss a solution:

  1. Christians misunderstand what a marriage is and often treat it with anything but sanctity. We treat it as a legal contract often as much as non-Christians do.
  2. We can and do legalize morality–this includes non-Christians–the problem is which aspects of our morality we legalize, and then how to police that decision.
  3. The church is not being told to perform gay marriages by the state

But should the church impose their morality on the state concerning the question of a legal agreement between two persons? I suggest that we don’t. But what should we do?

First, we should start taking marriage seriously among ourselves if we are going to tell other people what it is. There are gay couples that have stayed together longer than Christian couples. There are gay persons that have remained faithful to their partners while some Christian “leaders” have been adulterous. There are Christians that co-habitate rather than get married. Again, this is not about “right” or “wrong” just about the church first being honest about its practices.

Perhaps, we should use a different word for the union we enter into in a Christian sense: maybe Greek terms like gameo or diatheke; perhaps covenant. Something that clearly identifies in our language that what is going on in this church is not what is going on elsewhere.

Perhaps, the church gets very serious about how it instructs their young people on marriage and helps them through the dating process. Can we step away from the gnosticism so prevalent in our churches? Sex is “bad” don’t do it. Do we take our “beliefs” seriously enough to ensure healthy dating perceptions, relationship dynamics, and dating processes in our youth, young adults, and singles? Do we take marriage seriously enough to require Christian teenagers not be left alone for long periods of time unattended.

Do we take “marriage” seriously enough to demand that anyone that enters a covenant before God in our churches takes extensive marriage counseling and have proper Christian dating dynamics before we administer a sacred ceremony? Or do we just administer a legal proceeding so they can sign a contract (and receive the honorarium)?

Do we take “marriage” seriously enough to show people how to live Ephesians 5 and not just tell them to “believe” it’s true? Will we as Christians turn off HBO, CBS, FOX; close People and Maxim magazine; and STOP having our dating and marriage practices informed more by Hollywood than the Bible?

Could you imagine if we emerged from our fortresses of solitude into an ekklesia that actually invested in each others lives daily, and instructed our children in God’s Word and modeled what a covenant in marriage before God looked like? What if we actually were more concerned with reconciliation than being right in our churches, and learned to bring that to our marriages?

If we were those sort of married people we wouldn’t have to worry about the legal contracts the state was drawing up. Heck, we might even have a few people ask why our marriages are so different.

But then we might not be “right” so I’m not holding my breath that this would be something that many Christians would see as a viable alternative to picketing Congress or creating a Christian state (because that’s always worked out well ;) ). We might even be able to raise up a godly generation. Typical modern evangelical neo-gnosticism: it is more important to have the right kind of beliefs about marriage than have the right kind of marriage by relying on God.

As G.K. Chesterton once wrote “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.”

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This is a small part of a long conversation. I have not covered everything. There is much more to say. Just some first thoughts on a blog of some things I need to think through. I’m open to the possibility I may be mistaken on some points, but certainly the church must do something different and start taking marriage seriously.

And if you have something to say, remember nothing about “those gheys…”

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17 Comments leave one →
  1. June 12, 2008 2:36 pm

    Agree with your first point completely, however I disagree with your analogy you brought to your leader. We should observe finality of a divorce with the completion of the legal process because it’s not in conflict with our higher law(God’s), but common law marriage is certainly in violation of God’s definition of marriage so should not be observed despite being the law in some states. Of course the covenant of marriage can long be broken before the completion of the legal status of marriage, but that’s besides the point. If we honor the sanctity of marriage then I think this becomes a non-issue in the event of a divorce. Someone would want to see finality before moving on.

    Second point, agree with your sentiment, it’s a complicated issue…wish I had an answer there. In general I think the church is more effective by reaching the lost, seeing people’s heart’s changed for Christ and that sanctification process adjusting morals rather than trying to legislate moral change. But there is a balance, where it is, is hard to define.

    Third point spot on, not much more to add, you nailed it.

  2. June 12, 2008 3:11 pm

    Thanks for taking a different angle. I’m sorry I’ve not got much time to comment in detail, but I would add one other key point. If the church is seriously going to urge the virtue of celibacy, then it has to do so for people as a choice about how we choose to live as sexual beings. When marriage is the default for straight people and celibacy for gays, I suspect both are seriously devalued. This is different toy your point, but is also about taking marriage seriously and being honest about where we are.

  3. June 12, 2008 3:33 pm

    Kyle,

    You are right. My intended point was that the person had invested SO much authority in the government he did not know how to answer the question.

    For him what the government said was a marriage is what the church should recognize as a marriage.

    I will clarify that part in the future. Thanks.

  4. June 12, 2008 4:52 pm

    Glad you’re attempting to work through these issues. I may write a post on this very subject in the next few days.

  5. June 13, 2008 3:51 am

    I might well join in this conversation from my side of the ocean. I think what you have outlined is really spot on and I especially have felt the need to maybe change our terms to invest more covenantal meaning into marriage- gameo or diatheke are great suggestions.

  6. June 13, 2008 7:47 am

    awesome post. that’s really all i can think to say about it right now.

  7. nearlynormalized permalink
    June 13, 2008 9:33 am

    Statisically there are less marriages happening in the straight world, so why not celebrate the idea of marriage for those who wish to join the married set. What is the big thing with the church? I thought it was about $’s. The gay and lesbian poplulation have billions of dollars to spend, welcome them instead of, whatever hateful message the chruch and its affiliates have to say. Queers have it right, they make a good choice and are not forced into marriage!!!!

  8. June 13, 2008 10:19 am

    Very interesting article. I wasn’t able to finish the whole thing because i’m pressed for time– i’ll return later and finish it. Nice job!

  9. Jake permalink
    June 15, 2008 9:57 am

    nearlynormalized, I’m just trying to get my head ’round your comment but I’m slightly confused. Could you please clarify by a) clearly and concisely stating the point you are trying to make b) backing up your statistical claims with tangible references and c) maybe by leaving the issue of spending power out of it. I fail to see how having disposable income has any bearing on anything being said here at all. It makes my head hurt.

    From what I can gather in your comment, one of the tenets of your argument is that our society should look further into the legislative legitimacy of same sex marriages because of the quantity of marriages happening in the gay community (“statistically there are less marriages happening in the straight world…”). But this is a grossly over exaggerated claim. According to the 2006 census, which was the first national census in our country to take into account same sex marriage status, the number of people claiming to be in a same sex marriage was just under 15000, or roughly 0.03% of the total population. This also means, according to the census, that same sex marriages account for 0.1% of all marriages in the country.

    So how, by your logic, could there be more total instances of marriage happening in a group that does not comprise even one percent of the relevant population?

    You say you thought it was “all about the $’s”. According to the post you were commenting on, money was an issue yes. But it was an issue in regards to tax claims, status and financial security. Which should be a right for all citizens regardless of sexual or racial orientation. But you clearly miss the point when you put your statement into the context of the gay community having “billions of dollars to spend…” Since when was THAT ever the issue?

    Gay Community: “We want the right to marriage!!!”
    Canadian Government: “Hmm, that seems like too much of a hot button topic for our moderate liberalism (now liberal conservatism) and it IS an election year after all… so no. I’m afraid not.”
    Gay Community: “We have billions of dollars to spend!”
    CGov: “Oh! Well in that case go for it! Why didn’t you say so in the first place you silly monkeys!?!?!?!”

    Seriously? Since when does having billions of dollars give you more legislative rights? *looks at the price of gas* Erm… wait that doesn’t hold up.

    Seriously? Since when does having billions of dollars give you the moral high ground? hmm, that one barely works too but we’ll go with it.

    Gah, I’ve ranted. I apologize. But I don’t like people using “statistics” as some sort of catch all for their arguments and using the phrase “statistics say” all wanton and willy nilly! THERE WILL BE NO WILLY NILLY STATISTICS ON THIS SITE!

    I also wish that every reader here could see that Scott is still giggling like a school girl at the phrase “get my head ’round your comment” that I used at the top of this post.

  10. Jake permalink
    June 15, 2008 9:59 am

    By the way, all those little numbers in that comment were taken from this very interesting article at http://www.statcan.ca.

    http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/reference/same_sex_common_law.cfm

    Well, it’s interesting only if you like statistics…

  11. Pamela Sansour permalink
    June 18, 2008 12:57 pm

    The only thing of length that I ever read all the way through is probably the menu at Denny’s. You kept my attention. I actually snorted with food in my mouth (painful) while reading the rant from Jake. Thanks!

  12. nearlynormalized permalink
    August 10, 2008 4:52 pm

    Jake, I am glad your head hurts. $’s–what makes this country run? Watch when states need $’s they will welcome the “Gays to be married.” Get real and go pray.

  13. Jake permalink
    August 11, 2008 1:34 am

    nearlynormalized… I’m going to call you Norm ok?

    Norm, my head doesn’t hurt, I’m merely confused as to the position you’re occupying here. In your initial post, where you make the statistically disastrous claim that there are actually more marriages happening in the Gay community than the straight, it appears that you support the notion of gay marriage because they have a larger amount of disposable income. Is that what you’re saying? That gay’s should be allowed to marry because they have a lot of money? Hey I’ve got a good idea too, how about if you have a lot of money, you should also be entitled to better health care. How about if you have a lot of money you should get better tax breaks. How about if you have a lot of money, you should have parades held in your honour on a bi-weekly basis… just because!

    It appears to me that your support of a legislative act condoning Gay marriage is based primarily upon the fact that it would be an economic boon to our country and that a happy Gay community is one that would spend more, thus strengthening our country’s economic foundation. I conclude this because in your last post you refer to the government welcoming the notion of gay marriage when an economic crisis arrives.

    Now I realize that you might be very happy with yourself right now because I’ve just made your argument appear a lot more solid than it actually is. But here comes the part of the program where if you were Wiley Coyote, you’ll have just realized you’ve completely run off a cliff. Feel free at any point here to hold up a sign that says “Oops”.

    To base such a weighty, political and ultimately moral decision as Gay Marriage solely upon a financial or economic foundation is quite possibly the most asinine, inane, empty, meaningless and worthless thing I’ve ever heard in my life.

    Go pray? Pray for what? That God would make us see the light, and condoning gay marriage is the right thing to do because right after they get married, they’ll celebrate by buying Government bonds and have a big shopping spree at Best Buy? I can think of a lot of reasons why it would be legislatively positive that are better than this. You’re suggestion is embarrassing and offensive.

    So you can go ahead and roll your eyes and chuckle patronizingly and get up on your soap box and be the most moralistic horse’s behind and tell me to “go pray” but the fact remains that you’ve not made a single complete thought here so far other than “Gays have money, let them marry.” Even my co worker who is gay and does want to be married would be appalled at that.

    *headdesk*

  14. August 11, 2008 12:14 pm

    Scott, I have to take exception to at least one thing you wrote: governments do not legislate morality. Each of the examples you used were violations of property rights, not morals. Yes, they have moral components — governed by religious beliefs and, well, base humanity — , but that is not the purview of the government; protection of property rights is.

    As to the issue (and here, I’d like to offer my condolences; I was shocked to find out that Canada offers no free speech protections like that in the First Amendment here in the US. While that probably helps to keep this conversation on-task, you’re in potentially dangerous territory anyway) I’ve always taken the “scorched-earth” stance on gay marriage: get the government out of the institution.

    It is, obviously, patently unfair to not allow gays to be miserable in marriage like the rest of us. (j/k) Offering protections and special consideration — in tax breaks, medical decisions, and the like — to one population group and not all is unbalanced, to say the least. So dissolve the legal institution of marriage, make available to straight couples exactly what is currently available to gays. If you frile taxes, file under your own account. If you want legal or medical rights, draw up paperwork to cover same: living will with rights of custodianship; jointly title real property; draw up a will and name heirs to your estate. This way, marriage as a sacrament is left intact, but it has no legal meaning. Anyone wishing to have a legal standing would have to draw up a legal contract, complete with dissolution and arbitration clauses.

    And your comment about the church requiring extensive counselling before issuing the sacrament is exactly right.

    By the way, I’ve found nothig in the Bible that requires a legal contract, or even a religious ceremony, for marriage. It would seem that the first sexual liason between the man and woman established the marriage. Not for nothing, but isn’t that why they call it “consecrating” the relationship? It seems to me that the legality of the sacrament was established by governments wanting to exert control over their subjects, perhaps in complicity with secular power-seeking churches.

    Way to fan the flames of controversy dialogue, Scott! ;)

  15. August 11, 2008 3:01 pm

    Brian,

    What about laws against rape, child abuse, pedophilia, murder, etc. ?

    The reason that we can say that these are “moral” laws is that they “ought” not to be done.

    That is legislating morality. I’m not saying it is a Christian morality; however, even not stealing someone else’s property can be very much construed as a moral decision and therefore as a moral law. You shouldn’t do it.

    Near every law is enacting a moral of some kind.

  16. August 12, 2008 7:56 am

    I agree, those are immoral acts that have been legislated against. I am not disputing that fact, but I may not have been clear: the only proper role of government is protection of property rights, not being the morality police. If you start to give government — any government — the power to determine what is or is not moral, however, you put the state in the place of God.

    Each of those crimes you listed is the greatest of property rights violations: the violation of one’s own person. Therefore, each of those is appropriately legislated against; but I think inserting “morality” into the actions of a state player is incorrect and dangerous. Being offended by such actions? Fine. Understanding that such actions are morally wrong? Great. Teaching your children not to do such things? Excellent! But I can’t support having the state outlaw immorality.

    I think a great problem other Christian conservatives in the States have is trying to enforce their worldview on society in general, rather than trying to engage the world through relationships and evangelism. Christ said His kingdom is not of this world, but we have been trying to make it so ever since.

    For example, worshipping another god is immoral. But do you want the state to legislate that? I know I don’t. Stealing is immoral; but it should only be illegal (and is, unless the government does it — but that’s another conversation) because it violates property rights.

    I think we’d all be better off if we viewed the actions of the government in light of property rights, its proper bailiwick.

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